California Council for the Humanities
California Stories Initiative
Years of Valor, Years of Hope
Tulare County and the Years 1941-1946
Tulare County Library
The Friends of the Tulare County Library
And the Tulare County Historical Society
Interviews in 2003-2004
Report No: 31
Place of Interview: Strathmore, CA
OUTSTANDING POINTS IN LIFE:
The Local Japanese
Mennonites and Brethren
Cotton Fields and Acreage
Civilian Public Service
RL: Arline can you tell me your full name?
AH: Arline Caroline Ashfaulker Hilty.
RL: That’s a beautiful one. So Ashfaulker is your maiden name?
AH: That’s right.
RL: Can you give me your date of birth?
AH: Yes, August 4, 1921.
RL: And may I have your parent’s full names?
AH: Edward John Ashfaulker and Edna Viola Ashfaulker.
RL: Where were they from?
AH: They were from a little town in central Missouri, called Versailles.
RL: So, I assume that’s where you grew up?
AH: No. I was born there and when I was two years old, we came to California and we ended up in Los Angeles. I don’t remember that. I have two memories of that, living there, and we lived there for one year and then my father purchased a farm here in the San Joaquin Valley. We moved up here and I’ve lived in the same community ever since.
RL: So, if I understand correctly, roughly around the age of two, you moved from Los Angeles to the San Joaquin Valley?
AH: No, well no, I was two when we came to Los Angeles and we stayed there a year. Yes, supposedly, my father bought the farm up here and I don’t remember much. I have two memories of living in Los Angeles. One of them is, we lived next to a railroad track and there was a fence between our yard and the railroad track. And one morning, I climbed over the fence or something. Got out, anyway, and I can remember seeing the train coming down upon me and my brother was there and he leaped over the fence and got me off. I can remember that. We also have an old piano in our room here and that was delivered to us in a big piano box and I was (chuckle) very excited about the piano and the box. I don’t know where the box is now, but the piano still is here. The last time the piano tuner came he said this can be tuned no more because the strings are getting too weak, but I still play on it.
RL: Oh, that’s very neat. I just have to mention for the sake of the tape that Arlene was pointing toward her dining room behind her. Let’s see, how old were you, I haven’t done the math, when World War II began?
AH: Oh, gee, how old was I? It started in 1941, so I was 20 years old.
RL: Okay, so Pearl Harbor was December 7, 1941.
AH: Yes, I remember just where I was when I heard about it. Yes, I was in a peach orchard over about a mile and a half from here and I was in a truck. I had the radio on and they announced Pearl Harbor. I remember that very vividly.
RL: Did the announcer say something to the effect of .."We interrupt this program to bring you a special news bulletin" .?
AH: Yes, yes. That we were at war. I can remember that very plainly.
RL: Did he already have the stats on ..?
AH: No, there were no stats, just announced that we were at war.
RL: Well, that’s very interesting, thanks for bringing that up. So, by age 20, when the war began, were you still single?
AH: Oh yes.
RL: Were you in a dating type of relationship?
AH: Oh, (chuckle), I went with several different fella’s round about, but I don’t’ know that there was anybody that was particular.
RL: Okay, nobody too important. All right, and am I guessing right that you were still in college at that age?
AH: Yes, I guess I was. And I was, let’s see, I was planning to go to LaVerne College in Southern California.
RL: Okay, so when you heard of Pearl Harbor, which was in December, were you about to start college?
AH: Well, no, I was thinking I was out in the orchard. Why I was in the orchard at that time of year, I don’t know. I guess I was in junior college, but I guess it was about, when they talked about Pearl Harbor; something hit me in the orchard. I can remember that we all stopped.
RL: Something hit you, what?
AH: Well, the idea of being at war. When we were in the orchard. Maybe I was helping haul crops from the trees. I can remember being in the orchard, so some big thing happened when I was in the orchard, but I guess I was in LaVerne.
RL: Okay, and for the sake of the tape, which colleges did you go to?
AH: I went to Porterville Junior College here in Porterville for two years and then I went to LaVerne College for the final two years.
RL: All rightie. So you did better than me, you finished in four years. I finished in five.
AH: Well, they didn’t demand as much of us as they do now to graduate. I got my teaching credential there.
RL: Wonderful. So may I get the full names of your children?
AH: Well, there’s Wanda Lee Thompson, Norma Jean Goings, Duane Peter Hilty and James Edward Hilty. Duane was after his grandfather and James . . . he was just James.
RL: Was there a fifth child, I forget?
AH: No, no fifth. Two boys and two girls.
RL: Nice and even there.
AH: Yes, only we had the girls first.
RL: Okay, let’s go ahead and get their birth years.
AH: Oh, my, help me out? Wanda was born in 1953, Norma in 1955, and Duane in 1958, and Jim in 60. I hadn’t thought about it in that respect for quite awhile.
RL: So, just to go back for a moment to December ’41, you’re pretty sure that you were in college at Porterville Junior College?
AH: No, I guess I was at LaVerne.
RL: By then you had transferred to LaVerne, University of LaVerne in . . . what state is that?
AH: California, down very close to .just east of Los Angeles, in the city of LaVerne, California.
RL: Okay, when Pearl Harbor was bombed?
AH: That’s right.
RL: Just east of Los Angeles?
AH: Um hum. And being in a Brethren College, why that was quite an explosive thing.
RL: No pun intended.
AH: And the fellows were signed up very quickly for CPS.
RL: And for my dumbie head, what is CPS?
AH: Civilian Public Service, because they were Conscience Objectors, most of the fellows. So it turned out we were almost a girls college after that.
RL: Let’s see. Is there one particular event of the war that stands out in your memory?
AH: Of the war?
RL: For example, were you disgusted by Hiroshima or Nagasaki?
AH: Oh, more than disgusted, I was appalled. That such a thing should happen. I still am.
RL: Do you remember what you were doing on those days?
AH: Well, maybe that was . . . would that have been in the summer? I think that was maybe the day I’m thinking of in the orchard. And we were in the harvest at that time and I think I heard it on the news in the house and went out and told my father, who was the manager of the orchard at that time. All the pickers were kind of upset too.
RL: Just incidentally, were the pickers of Hispanic decent?
AH: No, not as many as now, but a few.
RL: And again, this orchard was?
AH: Ah, my father’s orchard and it was over here a couple miles away.
RL: Just a couple miles away. Incidentally, can you give your address for me.
AH: 19029 Road 168, Strathmore, California.
RL: All right, so just a couple of miles away. It was a peach orchard? And by any chance does it still exist as a peach orchard?
AH: No, when father sold it, he sold it to a dairyman and peaches and a dairy didn’t go together. So they pulled out the peaches.
RL: So now there’s a bunch of cows? All right, interesting. How long, incidentally, did your father have the orchard?
AH: Oh, hum, when did he plant it and when did we pull it out? Charlie Della, who bought the place, pulled it out. So when dad sold the place, why they pulled out the orchard to put in the cattle. It was when they built this house. They moved here, but the year, I couldn’t tell you. I can’t remember just how long it was before they moved here. I think it was about ’45.
RL: Ah, this question comes to the top of my head? Was your father a Conscientious Objector for World War I?
AH: Well, I guess that’s what you’d say . . . they weren’t conscious of it at that time, as much. But he was a Mennonite and so they thought war was wrong, you know, very definitely.
RL: I was just assuming that he was old enough to have been drafted, but maybe not?
AH: I doubt if he was. My husband knows more about that than I, because he came from the same church where my parents went to church. And it was in the mid-west.
RL: Interesting. I see some very interesting photographs upon the wall just ahead of me. The first one is a group of different photographs. One that strikes me in particular is Mrs. Hilty in her wedding gown, a lovely black and white. Can you tell me what year you were married?
AH: In 1946, sure.
RL: All right, so pretty much right after the war. And can you tell me how you met?
AH: Well, before I went to college. I was going to LaVerne College or planning to and my parents were taking a trip to Missouri and they needed a driver. So we drove to Missouri and while we were back there, why, I have many cousins back in Central Missouri. So one of them said, "We’re going down to the lake, would you like to go along?" Well, I always heard of the lake and I wanted to go see it. So I went and she and her boyfriend picked up this fella and we went . . . it was a blind date. (Chuckle) Then, I don’t know if we saw anymore of each other then or not. We saw each other at church, but I don’t know that we dated. I know we didn’t date. I came back and went to college at LaVerne, California. Then the war came along and he was drafted but he wasn’t drafted, he chose the alternate service. We didn’t see each other until he got out in 1946. But he was out here in California in the Forest Service and he came down here to see me on weekends. And that kind of started us out. During that time, I was teaching in the little town of Lindsay.
RL: Teaching in Lindsay, and what grade did you teach?
AH: I taught first grade. For three years, I taught there. Then we got married and I quit, thought he could support me.
RL: (Laughter). You thought he could support you? Did you think right?
AH: (Laughter). Yes, but I went back to teaching just because they needed teachers. Off and on. I wouldn’t take a steady job. But I would substitute and I taught at a little country school out here; I finished out a couple of years. But they had just too many students, so they just had to have a teacher and I taught in the town of Lindsay. I’d go in there for substituting and I substituted all over the county, you know. At the little country schools, but I taught three years at Lindsay before we were married. From 1943 to 1946.
RL: And did you take a honeymoon?
AH: Oh yes, we went to Yosemite.
RL: Oh lovely. I still haven’t been there. I need to go. Is there a hotel up there that you stayed at?
AH: We stayed in a little cabin. One night in a hotel and then, they had little cabins there at that time and I think they still do.
RL: About a week, did you stay?
AH: About three or four days, that was about all, because it was in the fall of the year and my husband was working for my brother, who had a new farm at the time. So they had plenty of work to do and so we couldn’t stay too long. And we had no car to go in; we had to borrow a car to go to Yosemite, so we had to get it back.
RL: So when you came back from your honeymoon, you didn’t start living in this house, did you?
AH: No, no, down on this corner, right down here, in behind some well worn trees is a little tumble down house. And it was little. I mean you almost could turn around in it. And we lived there a year or two. I guess we lived there two years, at least. And Calvin worked for my brother, who had a dairy. And he worked there and we lived in . . . . And that’s when I did some teaching. I taught a little then. A time or two, I mean, I was a substitute. And that’s where we started out and then kept looking over at this un-level land over here. The fields down this way and out west weren’t cultivated or anything, it was just kind of open ground. A lot of it was. And he kept looking at that and finally we decided to buy that place. So we bought some acreage; he wanted to farm.
RL: So, this field here. And is that cotton? I’m a city girl.
AH: Yes, this field here and that’s cotton. They’re picking it today and we had eighty acres to start with. We bought that eighty acres. And then we had to have a place to live, so we borrowed money from my dad, my brother and my aunt to build our house. It was pretty small; it had two little bedrooms and I guess the little dining room, living room, was about this size.
RL: So maybe this living room is 24 by 30? I’m bad at estimations. Great.
AH: So we lived there a few years and then we decided to add on, so we dug a basement and built a nice size living room. We added some bedrooms too. I can’t remember the steps that we took when we built. And we had a big house and we ended up with four children, so we filled it very well and that was home to us. But then my folks sold their place and they needed a house and we bought this place and so we decided to build a house for the folks, my parents, and an aunt lived with them. Then Calvin built this house and they lived in here until they passed away. By that time, our son had bought a place up here and he had four children, and they were, again, in a little house and I went over and found one of them, the baby, out here on the back porch in a play pen instead of a crib because there was no room in the house for her. So, I said, "This is it, we’re gonna trade houses." So we have traded houses. I was getting tired of keeping up the big house, since all the children were gone. So it worked out very well until Christmas Day, I don’t know how many years ago. We looked out and the house was on fire over there and it burned, but they’ve remodeled. They had very good insurance and it has been put back in beautiful shape
RL: So do I understand right, you can look out of one of your windows and see the house that you traded with?
AH: Yes. It’s right over here. I doubt if they have a light on, they work so late and tonight is a volley ball game or something. So our son, he did the farming around here for awhile and then his father-in-law went into a Yucca business. They squeezed the juice out of cactus and they use it for all kinds of things. I don’t know how many things they use it for. So he was in that business. He went into that with his father-in-law. And we had our old place over there, yet.
RL: Where did you say the cactus business was?
AH: It’s in Strathmore. The business is called Celucon.
RL: And you were saying that’s owned by your ?
AH: Our son’s father-in-law.
RL: Did I already ask you where you were when you heard that the war had ended?
AH: No, I don’t think you did. I think I was just home, at my parent’s house and heard it on the radio. I can’t remember but just hearing that it was over. I’m trying to think what I would have been doing. I had to finish out the year teaching though.
RL: Do you happen to remember if you only saw it in the newspaper, or if you heard it on the radio?
AH: I think somebody heard it and came and told us. I think that’s what
. . . now that I think back to that.
RL: Do you suppose that the six year olds in your class had any sort of clue about what that meant?
AH: Well, some of them . . . a lot of their fathers were gone, and I know we talked about it in the school. That maybe the fathers could come home now. Because that was the thing that lots of the children wanted; their fathers were gone. We also had lots of Japanese children in our school in Lindsay. And, I think we didn’t have the clashing too much with the kids, because a lot of the parents had gone to school together too. I had gone to school with Japanese in high school and I think we felt more sorry for them than anything. But we weren’t happy about the situation at all, that there had been a Japanese war, you know. And maybe in other rooms they had more trouble, but I wouldn’t allow anything against the Japanese in my room. They didn’t dare. In our school, we had them, but some of the schools wouldn’t allow them in school.
RL: Didn’t allow what? I’m confused.
AH: The Japanese children. We changed principals while I was there. Old Mrs. Glenn wasn’t gonna allow the Japanese to be ostracized. This Mrs. Glenn was an old, old woman, (chuckle) and when we got a younger man, well we didn’t have Japanese children for a year.
RL: So was that, do you think, due to the Tulare County concentration camp?
AH: Not as much. There had been a settlement of Japanese right next to the foothills. They were very good orange growers. And I had gone to school with quite a few of the Japanese when I was in high school, because I went to Strathmore and they were east of Strathmore and they were good friends of mine then. And in fact, our son married a Japanese girl and I had gone to school with her parents.
RL: Interesting, what is her maiden name?
AH: Sueboy, spelled Tsuboi. And there were quite a few in our high school. They were orange growers.
RL: And did you go to Strathmore High?
AH: Yeah, Strathmore High.
RL: What years were your high school years?
AH: From 1935 to 1939.
RL: Very interesting stories. Let’s see, so, it seems to me that your relations with the Japanese were really strong and healthy.
AH: They were just kids.
RL: And did you see any tension beyond the new fella who came in as a principal?
AH: Well, oh, in the grammar school, I don’t know that the principal had as much to do with it. I think maybe the school board did. Because I think he would have been very happy to have them, but I think it was the board. Now Lindsay was a little more . . . they didn’t mingle as much before as the Strathmore kids did. Because quite a few of the kids that came to Strathmore would have been in the Lindsay District, but they chose to come to Strathmore. They had inter-district agreements. I don’t know just when the Japanese came in . . . there was quite an influx of them in the late 20’s and early 30’s.
There were some inter-marriages with the Japanese before the war, but very few. After the war there was quite a bit. And our son married a Japanese girl.
RL: Incidentally, has she taught your son the language?
AH: No, I don’t think she knew it. No, she was born here. I don’t think Sandra spoke much Japanese. But grandma lived with them and I don’t think grandma would have changed, so maybe she spoke a little. I didn’t know grandma, but I knew her parents. I don’t know, she could understand it, but I don’t think she spoke it much, our daughter-in-law.
RL: I was really curious because I took Japanese for three years in college and after awhile I realized it’s so hard.
AH: Well I never heard Sandra speak much Japanese, but her parents did and I know her grandma did. She’d say grandma was there and it was hard to talk to grandma.
RL: And did she grow up just right around here?
AH: Our son Jim’s wife? Yeah, as I say, her folks went to Strathmore High School also, where I went. And, they lived on the east side of town and we lived on the west side of town. There was a big Japanese influx up in there at that time.
RL: Well, incidentally, I thought of one other question, going back to dating your husband, Calvin. Did you have the type of parents who were very protective, very strict and very reserved when it came to letting you go out with him?
AH: Oh, well, I was out of college at that time, you know. And I had dated off and on and in my last two years of high school. Do you mean from the Conscientious Objector view?
RL: No, just as a father who doesn’t want his baby girl to go out.
AH: Oh, no, no, my dad wasn’t that way. I think he was afraid he would have to put up with me forever. (Laughter) But, we weren’t kids when we got married. And, you know, I think they were ready to get rid of me. (Laughter) And they approved of Calvin. See they had known his father when they were in Missouri. When we lived in Missouri his father was their pastor. I had no trouble dating Calvin, but there are some fella’s that dad would get upset at, but not when Calvin came around.
RL: Doesn’t that work out well. Wow. Mennonite pastor, right? Calvin’s dad? Wow.
AH: My folks knew them there. Well, they had all their children when they moved out here. There was only two others and my brother is 10 years older than I am, but there was a brother in between who had passed away as a child. He had typhoid fever from drinking the water in Missouri and I think that’s the reason they moved out here. I remember the farm; we lived over here about a mile and a half.
RL: And going back to the cotton field, just to my right, how many acres is that?
AH: It’s a forty acre field and we have two fields here. It’s an eighty acre farm. And then we’re sitting on a forty acre farm, here at the house.
RL: Do you have employees working this field?
AH: You lease it out.
RL: Oh, you lease it out to a company?
AH: To an individual who has quite a large farming operation. We leased it to him for three years and we leased it to a neighbor for three years, so actually we have leased out this place for six years.
RL: And it’s all just cotton, there’s not another commodity?
AH: This year it is all cotton. There’s no trees on it and last year they had corn.
RL: So I guess one of you gets on the computer and manages your acres? (Chuckle)
AH: (Chuckle) we’re not very computer-wise. But, my husband invented a cap rack. He’ll have to go show you. We made hundreds of them. We had ten people working for us at one time. We just did it in the barn over there. We have a big barn with the house over there. And we made that into a factory, and made cap racks, and we sold many, many, many cap racks. Base ball caps, you know, and they have a button on the top, and he made a little gadget and they slid the button in. Oh my, we worked, ten or twelve people and we just converted our barn into a factory. He did that along with the farming and he would have hired men to do the farming.
RL: How long ago was that business?
AH: Oh, no idea, it’s been quite a few years. He was doing so great and then some other people started doing it, making them, and we had a patent on it and everything. So he wrote to his big vendors that somebody else was trying to do it and he had a law suit about it and that just cleared everything for everybody. And he’s tried to get it started again now and have his daughter work at it, but they say they make them out of plastic now and ours were made out of wood. Are you going to bring one? I don’t know what he’s up to. Maybe he can’t get it off the wall. But anyway, it was a thriving business, my goodness, we just shipped liked everything all over the country.
RL: Was that maybe thirty years ago, you think?
AH: Well, it hasn’t been that long. We weren’t living here yet. We were in the other house when we did that. My husband had a bunch of caps, and I said you’re gonna have to throw these caps away or figure out something to do with these and he got busy and we came up with this thing. We sold several hundred thousand of them.
RL: That’s neat. The cap rack is for baseball caps.
AH: And you get to keep one.
RL: Oh, isn’t that lovely. My boyfriend’s daughters wear a lot of baseball caps, so they’ll love this. That’s really neat. Thank you. Basically, it looks like maybe a foot and a half long piece of wood with six posts.
AH: We make them in twelve too and we cut them in two for people who want a six rack.
RL: And it has a hook at the top and I guess you just nail it to the wall and hook it over the nail and you just slip the baseball cap in and let the cap hang. And maybe this business folded about twenty years ago?
AH: Oh, ten or fifteen, I guess.
RL: Apparently, due to law suits?
AH: Well, it fell off. Really the thing that killed it, I guess, a man copied it.
RL: A man copied the patent?
AH: Yes, and he tried to file suit on us and all of our customers quit us
when they found out that we were involved in a law suit. We just never could build the trade back up. We didn’t try too hard, but it was a good thing while it lasted. We had about ten employees and it was a money making deal for us.
RL: Back in my family, back in Pennsylvania, our farmers wore a lot of caps, so I’m sure here in Tulare County it’s no different.
AH: Yes, we had boxes of caps around here. Yes, everybody had a cap collection or knew somebody that had a cap collection, you know. We’ll have to take you out and show you our display of caps. We’ve still got many caps in boxes, yet. (Chuckle) When we moved to the littler house, why, we didn’t have as much wall space as we did before.
RL: Just quickly, if I may finish the photographs, the black and white one? Just to the right of Arline’s wedding gown photo is who?
AH: My brother, and that’s me. There were ten years difference in our ages.
RL: He is a handsome little guy, he would be about twelve, maybe?
AH: Yes, I imagine so.
RL: He’s standing on the right, and it looks like he might be wearing something like a tux?
AH: Well, I imagine that it was his Sunday suit.
RL: His Sunday suit. And you’re cute as a button, standing on a table next to him.
AH: Yeah, I guess, now I don’t know if this was in Missouri or California. This would have to be in Missouri.
RL: In her bare feet, and she’s wearing, I guess, a white dress.
AH: Yes, with a little petticoat hanging out that has lace on it.
RL: And just below that is a gentleman?
AH: Yes, that’s Calvin, I guess. No, that’s my brother, that’s not Calvin. Yes, I take it back, that’s my brother. That’s Carroll with our children.
RL: And you said Carroll’s your brother?
AH: He’s my brother and he’s ten years older than I am.
RL: Wonderful, and the child picture in the drawer, just so cute.
AH: This is our adopted daughter and this is our Norma. And this is my father’s family. But my father isn’t in there and Aunt Martha isn’t in there. There were eight of them.
RL: So there were five boys? Not including your father?
AH: Hum, there must have been six boys.
RL: Six boys and two girls. Wow. So eight siblings, on your father’s side.
AH: And this is my father and my mother and my maiden aunt who lived with us. I had two mothers.
RL: And Arline was going from right to left, introducing.
AH: Ed Ashfaulker, Edna Ashfaulker and Lillian Moseser.
RL: And incidentally, are they standing from oldest to youngest?
AH: Oh no. Dad was the oldest and then Aunt Lidie and mother.
RL: Okay, so that was far right to far left to middle.
AH: And I can’t figure out where they were. Oh, that was under our window, over at the place over there.
RL: And do you happen to know roughly what era that was taken in?
AH: Oh boy, let’s see, maybe in the 30’s or early 40’s, I’d say. My dad moved that house in there. It was kind of like a pre-cut house.
RL: Oh, kind of like a modular home? Wow, that’s interesting.
AH: They built all around it, put stucco on it and did all kinds of things to it. Yeah, that was a pre-built house. And the rest of these are just kind of family pictures. Well, this is my best friend, we met on the first day of high school. We were both little country girls and we met on the steps at the high school and that’s been fifty or sixty eight years ago. If you saw the Hollywood picture, she was my friend that was down there with us.
RL: Oh, for the lottery show? Okay, I don’t remember a third person for some reason.
AH: Well, they panned our family several times, but they never announced that. Where there was quite a row, there was some youngsters and others.
RL: I’d like to mention just quickly that I saw Arline and Calvin on the California Lottery Show just last Saturday. I suppose that was the seventeenth or eighteenth of October, and they were being awarded for excellence in education, is that correct?
RL: A hero in education, for Calvin and Arline and they received this lovely transparent, sort of, trophy, you might say, for their contributions to the public education in the State of California, 2003. And it was very exciting to see them on TV, before I even got a chance to meet them. I just happened to see that. I was just doing some paper work and happened to look up and hear what the background noise was on TV, and there you were. I heard the names and I pointed to the TV and my jaw dropped to the floor. (Chuckle) And, it was one of those times of being at the right place at the right time, type of thing.
AH: Well, I was kind of embarrassed to be there for a lottery, but they treated us very nicely. They talked to my daughter; she was the one that sent us in. They talked to her quite a bit and they’re trying to get people interested in volunteering for odd jobs that teachers have to do, you know, or don’t have time to do. And with me, it was that I had taught school enough that I knew it was terribly hard to hear every little first grader read. And that’s what they need to do. They can read to themselves, but it doesn’t mean much to them, but when they read out loud and have somebody to explain it to them or the adult makes the child explain it, why that’s important. So that’s the reason we do it and we thoroughly enjoy it. That’s the fun time of the week, to have the little first graders come and read to us.
RL: And just out of curiosity did a lot of your students have trouble with English?
AH: Ah, here in this area, yes.
RL: So, did that make your job harder?
AH: Ah, by the time we get them, they’ve been to kindergarten and do pretty well. In kindergarten they’ve learned a lot of English. They don’t have much of an accent. They come out pretty good. But, when I was teaching full time I had so many Hispanic children and it’s hard to teach them to read, because they sound things so differently and everything. It’s very hard.
RL: Well, Arline, thank you so much for this interview.
AH: Well, I’ve rattled a lot and not done much.
RL: Oh, you’ve done a great job and we appreciate it and I’ve taken more than an hour and I’ve got some great material here. We’ll go ahead and say good night, and sign off.
R.Lukens/pd 11/15/2003/edit JW 4/28/04
Changes in italics were made during a phone interview with Arline on December 13, 2005.